Road Rave

I know I promised many of my scientist friends action items in light of the upcoming change in presidential administrations. Well, we’ve got you covered! The Union of Concerned Scientists has created an open letter to the 119th United States Congress, and we’re asking both scientists and supporters of science to sign on. We’ll take the letter to Congress on Friday, January 3rd and also share it publicly with the media and people responsible for protecting science and the evidence-based decisions that are critical for our environment, our health, and our safety. Visit ucs.org/savescience to sign the letter today.

Now, today’s episode had me on the road…the road to the Los Angeles Auto Show, where I was able to explore the latest and greatest in electric vehicle technology and get the scoop on how the transition from fossil fuel-based transportation to a cleaner, greener future is going. Hop in, and let’s enjoy the ride.

I’m your host Jess Phoenix, and this is science.

Jess: I am on location at the Convention Center in Los Angeles attending the Los Angeles Auto Show. This isn't my first time at an auto show, but it's my first time attending one while wearing my science hat, as opposed to my wannabe race car driver hat. For this special occasion, I'm here with Dr. David Reichmuth, senior engineer in the Clean Transportation Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists. Dave is our go-to guy when it comes to all things with wheels and electricity, and I'm thrilled to have an expert here to pull back the curtain on the future of transportation here in the U.S. So, Dave, I really appreciate you sitting down with me, and I wanted to start by asking you the question that I hear the most when it comes to electrifying passenger vehicles. Does it really make a difference to the environment when someone switches from an internal combustion engine to an electric vehicle?

Dave: Thanks, and thanks for having me here. It absolutely does make a difference when you look at the global warming emissions from going from gasoline to electricity, and so that's something I've looked at extensively here at UCS. First of all, when you look at, when you want to look at, do that comparison, we need to look at all the steps it takes to get gasoline into a vehicle and burn it, so getting it out of the ground, refining it into gasoline, and then, of course, burning it in the vehicle, and then we need to compare that to all the steps when we look at using an electric vehicle.

So, when you compare on an apples-to-apples basis gasoline versus electric vehicles, driving the average EV in the U.S. is equivalent to driving a gasoline car that gets 94 miles per gallon. And that's a hypothetical gasoline car, because there is no 94-mile-per-gallon gasoline car. When you look at a place that has a cleaner grid, like California, for example, it's less than a quarter of the emissions of driving a comparable gasoline car. Now, when you add in the battery manufacturing, that does add in some emissions for the EV. But if you look at a total life cycle basis, it's less than half the total lifetime emissions from an electric vehicle than compared to a gasoline vehicle.

Jess: That is a pretty stunning number. Less than half. Okay. So, that answers, like I said, the most pressing question that I get. But I was a relatively early adopter, because I had a first-generation Chevy Volt that I leased, and then I leased a second-gen Volt, and then I went and bought a used first-gen Volt. But my experience has been wonderful. I love the cars, but I know the technology has changed so much in the 10 years since my Volt was built. So, give us a little overview of what's new and exciting in the electric vehicle world.

Dave: Yeah, I think probably the biggest thing that car buyers will notice is that the average range of vehicles has gone up quite a bit. So, the first vehicle that was available on a mass market basis was the Nissan Leaf, and that had under 100-mile range on that vehicle. And now you're seeing most of the electric vehicles 250 or 300-mile range. So, I think that's probably one of the biggest things that a car buyer would see. I think the other thing that we are seeing in the industry is not so much on the vehicle themselves, it's just the incredible increase in the amount of charging infrastructure. So, most people are probably going to charge at home in their garage, and but when you want to take a longer trip or if you don't have a place at home to charge, you need public charging. And the availability of that charging is something that we've seen grow substantially over the last decade.

Jess: Wow. Okay. So, that's good because I know that was a concern a lot of people had with these EVs was, where are we going to fill up?

Dave: But that's an important thing to think about though is that these do replace the use of a gasoline car, but we are going to recharge them differently than filling up. So, like, people worry about, and it's a valid concern, like, well, I see gas stations everywhere, I don't see charging stations everywhere. But you have to think about it that, again, most people are probably going to charge in their garage, and they don't need that public charging station for most of their usage. So, we don't want to think about this as a one-to-one replacement. It has to be refueled exactly the same way as a gasoline car? No, it's going to be different. You're going to have actually much more convenient charging at home in your garage or driveway. A lot of times, like, I have an electric vehicle, I've charged it at public stations very rarely. I mean, do a lot of driving and still never have to visit, you know, never have to visit a charging station. And I mean, that you do for a longer trip, if you're going to go 500,1,000 miles, you're going to need to plan out that trip, maybe more than you would have to do for a gasoline vehicle. But, for most people, that's going to be a very infrequent thing to do. And the day-to-day usage is going to be much simpler.

Jess: I want to dance around a pun here, because we love our puns. But are all the major automakers going happily along for their EV ride?

Dave: I mean, no. That's the basic, is that we do have some automakers that are moving quicker than others. And it's, yeah, I think it's something that all the automakers acknowledge will be the future of driving. And all the brands we're seeing here at the Auto Show are global brands. Whether it's Toyota or Ford, GM, Hyundai, they're all selling cars around the world. And if you look at the rest of the world, it's moving to electric vehicles as well. And so, all the automakers know that that is where the end thing is. And a lot of the differences between the automakers is how quickly they are going to make that transition, and how much, some of them especially really want to try to sell as many gasoline cars in the short term as they can and delay that transition. And we know that's not something we really can do when we look at air pollution, when we look at global warming. Transportation in the U.S. is the largest source of global warming emissions. And passenger vehicles are the largest part of transportation emissions. So, there's no way to address climate change without moving from gasoline, without moving from fossil fuels, to a cleaner source like electricity.

Jess: So, a lot of people only listen to programs like this in little clips on social media. So, and you kind of, you went this direction. So, can you give me your best elevator pitch for electrifying vehicles?

Dave: The short answer is that to meet our climate goals, to limit climate change, we need to eliminate the emissions from passenger vehicles. And electrification is going to be the way that we can do that the quickest and easiest. And in the end, we'll actually save drivers money.

Jess: There you go. Save money. Good for the planet. I'm very into this. So, I was looking up some facts and figures and I saw that Kelley Blue Book's list of the most popular cars sold in the U.S. for 2024, it's topped by the Ford F-Series pickup trucks, and then it's followed by the Chevy Silverado pickup trucks, and then the Toyota RAV4 SUV is third. After that, I was actually surprised to see the fully electric Tesla Model Y, but then the rest of the top 10 only had two other traditional sedans, which were the Camry and the Civic. So, what does the U.S.'s current appetite for trucks and SUVs mean for the future of electric options?

Dave:: Yeah, so, I mean, there's a couple things there. One is that we certainly can and are electrifying those larger vehicles. So, you mentioned the Ford F-150 and the Chevy Silverado. Well, we just saw electric versions of both of those vehicles on the convention floor. And so, those exist. But, I mean, there is an issue that we need to electrify all the vehicles and we want people to have the mobility needs they need. But, electrification is an excuse to sort of go to inefficient vehicles. So, we need to, we want people to, whether they're driving a gasoline or an electric vehicle, to pick the most efficient vehicle that suits their needs. If you're a contractor or a builder and you need a pickup truck, that's great. There are now going to be, there are now electric options where you can make that switch to electric. If you are somebody who is commuting 40 miles a day by themselves to work, you probably don't need a full-size SUV. And there are smaller and just as capable electric options that are there.

Jess: Yeah, I would like it if people would want those options. That's the other thing. It's the consumer taste, but then you wonder how much is driven by the automakers versus how much is genuine from you or I saying, "What do I want in a car?"

Dave:: Yeah, and there's definitely a lot of marketing that goes into trying to convince people they need something that can go on a backwoods trail over the mountain ridge. If you look at the ads on your TV, it's a four-wheel drive vehicle going through the wilderness. And most of those cars that are sold today are, maybe you're going to see a pothole on the way to Costco, and that's as extreme as the driving they're going to do. And so you probably don't need that off-road capability as much as the automakers would like to convince you that you do.

Jess: Yeah, definitely an image thing going on there. But let's go turn a little bit and go into policy. And so California, where we're sitting right now, where we both live, we're such a leader in terms of the states, in terms of emission standards, and that other states choose to follow the federal standards or California standards. And California's are stricter, and that's really impressive. But how much muscle is California going to have with the upcoming second Trump presidency in terms of things like emission standards?

Dave:: Yeah, I just want to make sure.

Jess: Yeah, you're fine.

Dave:: Okay, because I just get a lot of...

Jess: Yeah, you're okay.

Dave:: Okay. So when we look at California, so just to give a little bit of background, California, because of its longstanding history with air pollution problems, was able to set its own standards for vehicles, and this has been happening since the '70s. I'm old enough where, when I was homesick watching "Price is Right" during the day on TV, you'd win a car with California emissions. That was part of the...

Jess: It's a big deal.

Dave:: Yeah, you had cars that were specifically built for California emissions. The rules are different now, but it still is the fact that California has standards that go beyond what the federal standards are, especially in requiring an increasing amount of what they term zero-emission vehicles, and those are fuel cell electric, battery electric, and plug-in hybrid vehicles. And so the interesting thing here is also that California can set its own standards, and other states can and have signed on to California standards. So California is important, but also the other clean car states that have signed on, also really important. And those standards will probably be under attack during a second Trump administration.

The federal standards that have been put in place that are going to lead to cleaner cars is also going to be directly under attack. But you know, it is important that California has these standards that will hopefully keep the automakers bringing electric options to the dealerships. The other thing that I would say on that is, when we look at a Trump administration, is these auto companies are building cars that take years to design, to tool up the factories, to produce the vehicles. They don't want to have to change what their product mix is every four years, or every two years, which is the changes in Congress. I think they do want some certainty and to keep on this path that they already are on. They're building battery factories, they're building electric vehicles, and I think there is that desire to keep moving in that path.

Jess: So the wheels of commerce turn somewhat slowly. The puns are just bad today. Oh, I'm sorry, I apologize to the audience. You've probably heard them all. So from my perspective, it sounds like we, as consumers of these vehicles, need to keep building advocacy for cleaner cars and trucks, and for transportation in general, not just passenger transportation. But I think one thing that people across the political spectrum can agree on is that nobody wants to breathe dirty, polluted air. So what are some ways that you think that we can keep the momentum for electrification going?

Dave:: Yeah, I think that we can definitely, buyers can play a role in terms of the simple steps I would think about if you're looking at a new car is, one, is that if you can go electric, make that switch to an electric vehicle, whether it's a plug-in hybrid or a fully electric vehicle. If you have a place to plug in, if that is a relatively easy switch for you to make, that is one of the best things you can do. And then whether you're picking gasoline or electric, choosing a more efficient vehicle that meets your needs. In case of an electric vehicle, it's going to be cheaper to buy a more efficient vehicle because it's going to require a smaller battery to go the same distance. So that's the thing. On the policy side though, we need to make sure that manufacturers keep providing options because if you go to buy a new vehicle, you're limited to what's available from the manufacturers. You can't just specify, "I want." Jess: I know, I wish. I have some cars I would design.

Dave:: And so we do need that strong policy signal to the manufacturers to ensure that buyers have that option. That when they say, hey, actually I could make that switch to electric, that there are those models available that meet their needs.

Jess: Yeah, that's very reasonable. So okay, so I'm a scientist and I specialize in disasters, right? I was really excited when I got my Volt about the possibility of using it as a whole house generator during power outages. As we know, they happen during all sorts of natural disasters. But it takes some serious modification to do that with an older EV like the Volt. But you mentioned to me that there are some really cool new developments that are promising to make EVs more useful for things other than just driving around, like useful around the house. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Dave:: Yeah, there's an increasing number of vehicles that can do what's called vehicle to load, which means you have outlets on the car and so you can plug devices in. So if you go camping, you could plug in all your electric stuff. If you have a tailgate party, you could plug in a TV. Jess: Boombox. Oh well.

Dave:: Portable hot tub, who knows.

Jess: There we go. Dream big.

Dave:: So using that big battery and being able to power devices on that, that's one level. But what we've been looking at more recently at UCS is sort of what's the potential for connecting vehicles to the grid in a beneficial way. And so you can think of that in multiple ways. One is that we just have the grid and the vehicle communicating so that they're charging the most efficiently for the grid and minimizing emissions. But then there's the other step where the vehicle could help power the home or even power the grid. And so for powering the home, that would provide backup power. So if the power goes off, but you have a giant battery in your garage, yeah, let's connect those two. Jess: Let's use it.

Dave:: It's a little bit more complicated than that on a technical level because you have to make sure that the electrical system of your house is compatible with that. And you also want to make sure that you're not sending power back to the neighborhood when if there's a downed power line. Jess: Oh yeah, that would be bad.

Dave:: I mean, it's the same thing that happens with solar panels and power outage. It's definitely doable. But not all electric vehicles can do that right now. And something that I and my colleagues worked on this year in California was actually getting legislation passed to have the state look at requiring the bi-directional capability for new EVs in California, just to make sure that newer EVs can be a benefit to the electric grid going forward. Jess: I think just the recent spate of hurricanes we've had, I mean, while we're recording this, there's a bomb cyclone hitting Northern California where you live. And I mean, these natural disasters come with massive power outages. There are huge consequences. And I think it would be great for people to have that ability to use their thing sitting in their garage for the benefit of themselves and the grid.

Dave:: Yeah, and I mean, in Northern California, we've had power outages, you know, planned power outages because of high wildfire danger. And so we know that extreme weather, wildfire, all these things are going to increase with climate change. And so having EVs be part of the resiliency is something that could be really beneficial. I mean, there's a lot of technical steps that have to happen for where we are now to that point. But we're already seeing vehicles that have that capability. And so, you know, as we move forward, we're going to see that as being a greater, play a greater role in our electric grid.

Jess: And it seems like that actually should have appeal across the political spectrum too, because people of all different political bents want to be resilient when it comes to disasters. So I think that's something that has a lot of potential to appeal to folks and in the push for electrification. So good work, very cool.

Dave:: Yeah, and I think there is this thought that like, well, EVs are really just a blue state thing. Maybe it's a California thing, right? Or just a coastal thing. But if you look at California is the number one for EV sales by far. Go California. But number two and three is Florida and Texas.

Jess: I learned something today.

Dave:: But I mean, in some part because they're larger states, but there still is a sizable interest in EVs outside of California.

Jess: It's practical, and it is a solution, and we're all affected by the extreme weather. So that's really encouraging. And look, you study vehicle electrification, and the policies around it, you do that for a living. But what gets you out of bed in the morning these days in your field? Like what is driving you, ha ha, another pun, to keep going? The puns will come until the interview is done.

Dave:: Well, I need to get into my electric vehicle every morning and drive my daughter to school. So that's what gets me out of bed.

Jess: Very practical. I like it.

Dave:: I think that, in all seriousness, though, when I look at my daughters and I know that we need to do a lot to minimize the damage of climate change, we're not going to be able to protect the next generations from climate change. But that doesn't mean there's nothing we can do. In fact, there's a lot we can do. And how much damage we have from climate change is tied to how quickly we make these transitions away from burning fossil fuels. And it's where I'm optimistic is that we can go out of this room right now and we can see solutions where people can make that switch today in a small car, in a big car, full-size SUV. Those options exist. We're not going fast enough, or as fast as we could go.

But those options exist. When I started at UCS in 2013, there were just a handful of electric vehicles and a lot of them short-range EVs. They were not replacements for everybody's driving needs. They were replacements for just small pieces of what people needed to do with their car. I look today and we don't have to invent a new technology. We don't have to invent anti-gravity technology. It's not about, like, do we need jet packs? No, it's like we have the technology. It's there. And it's about how quickly can we move.

Jess: And so just a little random trivia question then. Is it correct that there were electric vehicles before the internal combustion engine really took hold?

Dave:: Yeah, it is. There's a little display out here I can show you later. It's that turn of the century there was, last century...

Jess: Turn of the last century.

Dave:: Yeah, electric vehicles were out there. And they were all harder. All vehicles were a little bit hard to refuel. You had to go to the hardware store and get gasoline by the pail.

Jess: I was thinking you had to milk the oil derrick or something. But yeah, that's close.

Dave:: No, I mean, but these, it wasn't, you know, there were these different options. There was the Stanley Steamer, steam-powered, like, vehicle. So there were electric vehicles in the past. But now, I think, increasingly, when we say, what is the vehicle of the past, it's the gasoline vehicle. It's the diesel vehicle.

Jess: Just like it used to be horses and buggies, you know? I mean, we're evolving as a species here. And so I always wrap up interviews on "This is Science" with a two-part question. Here's the first part. And you've kind of talked about it a little bit, but I think you can elaborate. And it's, Dave, we're the Union of Concerned Scientists. Why are you concerned?

Dave:: Why am I concerned? Well, I'm a concerned scientist because we know the impacts of climate change, we know the impacts of air pollution. And I'm concerned that we're not moving quickly enough to get rid of those harms to ourselves and to our communities. And I have a lot of hope about how we can make, you know, try to address those harms. But that's what I'm concerned about.

Jess: Okay, so then we don't end on downers here. We are an action-oriented organization. So you've told us a bit, but what are you doing about your concern?

Dave:: Yeah, I mean, so a lot of, okay, sorry. So when I look at what I can do, is that, well, what I do is look at, one, is I look at policies, how do we set up the policies in our state and our country, so that we can move as quickly as possible to cleaner modes of transportation. And in order to make those policies, we need to have the data, we need to have the analysis that shows that this actually is cleaner and achievable. And so that's the other part of my work is looking at what are the emissions from electric vehicles and how do they compare to gasoline vehicles? What are the emissions from our current transportation system? And who does that harm?

Dave:: And then looking at the technology and like, how quickly can we move? Like, what is achievable? And because that's important, because there's definitely the opinion of the oil companies on how fast we can move, or some of the automakers is maybe a little bit more pessimistic and having that data to show that, no, we can move faster is super important. Jess: That's great. That's great. Well, I want to ask one more thing, which we may or may not put in the actual episode, but we may use it for social media, which is, Dave, what got you into this line of research? Because this is to me, I'm like, how did you get from what you studied in university to this?

Dave:: Yeah, it was a, it wasn't a direct course from what I studied to this line of work. I worked for a while at Sandia National Labs in Livermore, California. And part of my work there was looking at the transportation system and sort of like what large-scale changes would mean in terms of emissions, in terms of fuel use, looking at biofuels and other options. I really enjoyed that work. I enjoyed working with a great bunch of people there. The downside of working at National Lab is that you can put out an answer and you then have to hope that somebody finds it and does something with it. And so I got into my role here at UCS in part because this was a place where I could not only look at what the answers are, do the analysis, but then advocate for putting that data to use.

Thanks to Dave, and to Omari Spears and Abby Figueroa for production help. Charge into the future, Science Roadsters!